1-2-3...
Tadda!
Nope. I still don’t see it.
I’m looking for my Jewish nose. I know I have it, for sure. In a world full of diversity people can single me out in a snap. And Yoelish, he’s got it too. You can just imagine how our children look.
When I go to a place that’s not dominated by Jews, I feel like I’m walking with a gallon lump in the middle of my face. I'm accutely aware of my nasal entirety. Like a family of us cartoon creatures. In shopping malls, amusement parks, hotels and especially the theater. I get stares.
Sometimes I get more than that. Like the talkative cab driver that quotes the New Testament in eight places, showing off his religious knowledge. Then there’s the conservative 50 year old woman with the china doll hair that pats me on the back, counts my children three times and starts talking about the war in Iraq as if I can fix it, due to my great connection with God.
There are those from out of town that sigh loudly, and wonder when orange/maroon hair stopped being cool enough. They look at the action on my head, then the line running along my stockings, over to my boy's dangling facial thingies. Then they assume my tongue is pierced .
Some people walk quickly, so to prevent being involved in my suicide explosion. They grab what they can and get out of my way. They keep looking back with menacing glances and then quickly put in a phone call to the FBI.
I like the fellow Jews that don’t wear their bris on their face. They sound like your average goy (bald in front, pony in back) and suddenly come up to you with a perish on the parsha. What do you want of me? Did they just announce that I’m a Rabbi, available and looking?
It’s not good to compare me to the Amish. I suffer from a little envy. We got the beard AND the side-curls (and then some more) but we don’t get a chocolate factory to go with our little town. I betchya the Hershey's meant us. Just look at the name. And imagine all the tourism we could have! I'd be a sensation just by 'riding my buggy' to the 'market' wearing my 'bonnet'.
One particular instance ticked me off. It was a long time ago, when my husband and I stayed at some all-inclusive hotel in the Sunshine State. We were lounging around at the bar nightime when a man came up to me and informed me that there will be an adult performance.
“Okay” I said and sought out another non-broken pretzel from my Schwartz bag. C-u-runch.
The guy just stood there, hovering.
I love those tall chairs next to the counter and silly football games. Yoelish and I mock these players as if we’re wiser than the world. I was watching the HomeDepot commercial for the eighth time by running after the words on the screen with my mouth. That freckled guy started clearing his throat.
“Ahem. Ahem. Ma’am. I said there will be a show for, for, for adults. It’ll be like, a little offensive.”
“Good, okay.” I repeated absentmindedly.
“Ma’am. I’m not sure if you understand. They make fun of ---“ his hands tuned in a washmachine cycle “sexnstuff”.
I smiled up to that fidgety thin fella. “I can handle it Sir.”
“Are you sure, are you sure?”
The vein on my forehead popped out.
“I’ll get a nose job, okay! Just leave me alone!”
.
71 comments:
Kenst duch yu!!!! lol
Nicely done babe.
I think it was the fact that Yoilish hakkt oif de masheene- and then called the manager, to get his quarter back- That gave it away more then your nose or shpitzle.
Don't know what to say Shpiz, but though no one would mistake me for a Shiksa, my experiences in the big bad world don't mirror yours at all. I've hardly bumped into anything or anybody that smacks of anti-Semitism or chariedi-phobia ever since I turned into a women.
I've also noticed that some shpizel sporting ladies, specifically those with brains underneath, give off very confident and exuberant vibes and have this "I don't give a damn" aura about them. I guess that's the benefit that comes with the territory. If you can't rely on your looks to take you places, you learn to cultivate and enhance your personality. (And that is not to say that woman who wear shpizlech can't be beautiful as well, but I'm sure you get my point).
Awesome post!
As a lone hebrew who works in Goyishland, I know the feeling exactly!
Like the time a co-worker (female) came over to discuss the recent study that AIDS transmission is lower in circumcised men.
WHY ME?
(and what is there to discuss?)
posted at 6:13 am @#$%^&*
what?!! are u having sleepless nights? is it DE BABY or DE BLOG, or somthin' else?
so far it seems like it's our luck, because the posts are flowing like water falls, one great one after the other,
who knows? maybe those sleepless nights, do have a positive effect on ones mind.
should I try it too? or I am lost case, nothin will help me ti improve.
Reminds me of the instance when my husband and I went to a mall, and a little girl poked her mother and loudly whispered, "Mom, look! He's got pigtails!!"
Shpitz, perhaps it's not your nose as much as it's the pigtails being sported by the males in your close proximity?
Ex ;) Hey, don’t be an anti-Semite. That quarter belonged to us!
Hoezen You are definitely right, and that’s because we are so self conscious about looking different that we ‘think’ everyone is looking at us. I can’t say, it is true to a large extend (no, the anecdote is a real individual incident but it is not a case of anti-Semitism, rather, ignorance on behalf of that guy). We might not be ogled at in NYC, but if you ever travel to places that aren’t used to Chassidim you’ll get some of it. These people usually mean no harm; it is just very uncomfortable to feel so different.
CYL I wonder why nobody discusses it with me… *.*
Nuch a Chosid No big deal. Every morning at 6:00 AM I get up, drag Yoelish’s feet out the door, lock the locks and then go back to bed. (I know. Chachmis nashim bunsu talmud chachim. Why did you think he is in shul so punctually every morning?) This morning by chance I decided to ‘chap’ aryn a shtikle gemarah myself (for exactly thirteen minutes) in mesechtes blog.
Lipella thanks....
IA GN LOL! BTW, I have piggytales too!
You know those costume glasses with the fake nose and moustache attached? Well in my family if you put those on the only difference is that now you're wearing glasses. My cousin works as a nurse, and because hospital employees get a discount on such things, opted to have a button-like goyishe nose instead. Mrs. Jude finds this hilarious as said cousins daughters all have the original family shnoz.
By the way, I get the Amish thing all the time. Not to many Jews in black hats out here on the lefty coast.
Brilliant again. I'm finding myself addicted to your blog and come here daily in hopes of finding another eloquent posts.
Thank you for opening my eyes, I promise not to ogle anymore.
Your posts get funnier and funnier. I would love for you to send me a pic of the lampost in your room. It will be great for my next blog post lol. Thanks for the usual laughs.
DEJ-It is hillarious!! and you aren't amish?? What?? oy!
Hoezentragerin - I think its true about the aura..
Shpitz I will leave up to your discretion if you want to post this, and I wont be offended if you choose not to.
But telling a Goy you can 'handle' sex related things is a major major Chilul Hashem.. If you want to dress the part you really should walk the walk and talk the talk..
Im not judging, and Im far from a Tzadeikes myself, but its a million times worse to give a Goy who respects us for our purity and innocence the wrong impression then it is to wear a hat-fall or a very natural looking Sheitel.. instead of a Shpitzel or Bindel or whatever..
I hope you arent offended by my saying this...
Shpitzle, you do? You gonna wear them on Purim, perhaps?
Semgirl- what is wrong with sex? You mean to say give the goy the impression we do not have sex? Sex is a mitzvah not a bad sin like you make it out to be. It is a beautiful thing.
1) That story can't be true, YOU not caring to leave before a adult show, I am not being mekabel that loshen Hora.. no way.
2) It has been pointed out before that getting the stares and being obvious depends where u r, in NYC and surroiundings where they are used to chasdidim, not many would stop and grant us even a look, but once u get out of the heavily poplates chasidim areas, u can write a book about the comments and stares, good or bad u wil get.
Especially when going out of state or country,
In a park once, a little goyele seeing us in full garb, or as u call it "shmone begodim" pointed out his finger to his mommy, "look ma, they are dreesed for church"..
In Eastern Europe some where, a goy was being curious asking all kinds of questions (is the hole in the sheet true @##$$^$#) and apologized that he has never seen any real ones, only on tv...
3) The jewish nose is a antisemitic thing, and if u ever listened to comedian Jacky mason, he has like a million corny jokes on the jewish nose. and the Jewish yentes going for nose jobs chopping off their noses...
4) Semgirl has said it in her blunt way, which nay be a little strong forthcoming, but I agree that some one wearing a L'vush, has a responsibility of not making a Chilul Hashem.
Yet, in most cases, in todays world where people (un)dress and wear the most crazy attire, anything isn't so obvious, and wouldn't call out attention, but in cases where it did, maybe u shuld've not stayed.
But i think he wasn't a goy at all, he was the yetzer tov dressed up like a goy trying to keep u from staying.
or maybe he was hired by the vadd ha... to keep yidden from seeing evil.
5) about mistaken us for the Amish, check out the picture on my blog's sidebar...
There is this anecdote which is told on many, but th story itself is good.
about a Ruv or Rosh yeshive who was traveling in America in pre-WWII and was apprroaced by an amercian freier yid with an attack in yididsh that he is making a chilul hashem by being dressed in the full rabbinic garb like in Europe.
- This is America, this so out of place here, you are making a chilul hashem and causing antisemitism
to which the Ruv replied
- I am sorry, sir, I don't understand, what are u saying
- that freier yid looks at him puzzled..... you are not jewish???
- me??? no!! i am Amish!!
- oh really, wow that is so nice, you keeping he old traditions, that is praiseworthy
- really??! DEE SHEGATZ EINER!!! the Amish you respect!! and a yid keeping his tradition you attack?!
needless to say, he has out him in place
so shpizle next time try playing this, and let us know if it worked.
Der Ewige Jude LOL!!!
I don’t see the Jewish nose thing to be true, really. There are button noses amongst us just the same.
Anon Why thank you. I’m flattered!
SW FM One day….
Mrs. Jude You two are the cutest two things to have ever entered blogsphere!!
S-Girl Actually, I really appreciate your take on this although I’m not sure I agree.
There are three categories. Those that have no boundaries... These people usually don’t mind the chillul hashem that comes with their actions.
There are those that would intentionally participate in such shows/entertainment etc with their spouse. I guess it is not halachic permissible to do such things, aside from the lack of modesty, although these people don’t feel like they do or don’t make a chillul hashem. They just want to spend some fun time with their spouse. Although this category is a big improvement from the first, I understand the problem with it.
Then there are situations when you do not intentionally participate in anything, but are there by chance, as in the night there was a comedian in a bar I happened to be. To what extent do we have to go to be modest?
Should I have stood up and left the room when a goy came over to me with the attitude that I am a 6 year old kid that should be sent to bed when PG 13 comes on? And made a kiddish hashem by convincing another goy that intimacy does not exist in our community (hole-in-sheet theory) ? Or maybe that we are so holy we leave out this part of nature altogether?
And why are we so concerned in the first place about convincing the goy of something we’re not completely about? Why do we send the impression that we’re saints?
I don’t think it’s a chillul hashem to be mature about it, turn your way and do your thing. We’re married adults, after all.
IA GN I was referring to the shmuntzes on my tichel. But you’re giving me new ideas for this year’s Purim costume…
Anon I agree that the attitude needs improvement.
shpitzle - oh I am blushing. lol
nuch - great photo!!! I love that!
Gut shabbos and have a good tu b'shvat ya'all..
(-;
I think that one should be more worried about the chilul hashem that is made when a frum dressed man or woman cuts someone off on the highway or doesn't show any courtesy in a department store.
Perhaps by staying to watch the show, the goy doesnt think we such freaks and can see taht deep down people are people (will we ever see that?)
Okay good things come to those who wait:)
Nuch's story was with one the Twerskys
any way I grada have a smallish nose so with my white shirt and dark pants, I've gotten recognition as a priest.
Yup!
An old guy walks past me and in a hoarse voice says " bless you father"
Sorta surprised at my end I responded "Thank you, G-d bless"
He smiled and moved on.
Yea, I fooled him, but its better than being warned about sex in a bar.
One more note Mrs Shpitz, I doubt your nose is what people use as a jewish measuring stick, more likely its the shpitz, the facial features just confirm that your not a sci-fi junky.
Nuch's story was with one the Twerskys
any way I grada have a smallish nose so with my white shirt and dark pants, I've gotten recognition as a priest.
Yup!
An old guy walks past me and in a hoarse voice says " bless you father"
Sorta surprised at my end I responded "Thank you, G-d bless"
He smiled and moved on.
Yea, I fooled him, but its better than being warned about sex in a bar.
One more note Mrs Shpitz, I doubt your nose is what people use as a jewish measuring stick, more likely its the shpitz, the facial features just confirm that your not a sci-fi junky.
To our credit the guy assumed frum jews would not be interested.
But why let some pruste goyim ruin a vacation?
I say right on shpitzle, just don't be metame your reine oigen.
GutShabboShiraTuBishvat
Please don't choke on Bukser.
Shpitz, I would say like this. It says in Cetuvos that "everyone knows why the calla goes to the chuppa, but if you speak about it, a good degree of seventy years is changed to a bad one.".
When I was in high school, I felt very much like you. Hey, Im just a young girl like anyone else. In Seminary in Israel. I liked to frequent Diezengoff or King George Plaza for ice cream, videos, and just take in the sights. Invariably many Israelis, would take one look at me and say this isnt for Datim. Often, I would answer that I'm American and just as cool if not cooler then they are.
Now that I'm married and a bit older, I realize that you are right we are all human, and have red blood and the same carnal needs and desires as everyone else, however it should be spoken at in privacy (ain darshanim arayos bsholosha). You arent going to get more Olam Haba or acquire more Yiras Shomayim by having public discussions about this, especially with secular people . And that should be the primary concern in anything that you do in life..
Never mind about your nose, have you ever had anyone ask you to bless their red 'kabbalah' string???
Nuch, Dear,
1. I know you’re a wonderful person, but you don’t realize that you’re trying to do the atypical, shove the truth under the carpet because it’s not convenient. How much really do we keep under that carpet?
2. Very interesting. I know the curious ones…
3. I wouldn’t call it antisemitsm, rather a stereotype. Based on my own statistics (taken via ogling) I find the nose legend to be untrue.
4. I’ll tell you, the Yetzar Tov is NOT winning the masquerade contest. His farshtelachts was awful.
5. I’ve heard this story. I’ll tell you why the Amish are respected. Because their definition of promotion is not our distorted version of Chillul Hashem/Kiddish Hashem.
What does a Kiddish Hashem really mean? We didn’t achieve that as of today. By acting like non-human people with no sense of humor that just know how to brawl and bicker… I don’t think that’s what God had in mind.
Mrs. Jude I hope you had a great Tu Beshvat too and went totally nuts!
Anon I agree completely with you. What should I do, seems halacha is not on our side. (BTW, stand up comedy in a bar does not especially make for an auditorium. I didn’t even watch the show, mostly because I wasn’t interested. I just didn’t run like hell entered.)
Yingerman LOL!! Great story!
Rabbeh CYL Shlita Thanks, and I hope you didn’t consume your brother in jest of eating dates (Teitelbaums).
SemGirl I mostly agree with you I’d just like to point out two things:
1. I always hear the “you’ve-got-the-levish, you-should-act-it.” I really don’t think it’s fair. Why do I have to behave better? Because my mother wanted me to dress in a specific way? Now while you’re off having a good time I should go around and protect our reputation? I don’t think the two should be related.
2. I think the fact that sex is such a taboo subject is the source of a lot of problems for couples. I know we have to be discreet but the level of modesty now has a lot of side effects.
Kasamba What did you do? Mumble something onto thy thread?? Sounds like opportunity knocking…
OK, OK, a little political correctness, pliz.
Now ask Yoelish if he has any good ones about the 'extended hand frozen in mid-air' for you to give your fantastic treatment to, and us men to commiserate with.
While you may feel that your dress, which is largely a matter of choice, should not limit your actions, I would counter with the following: as an observant Jew, I feel uncomfortable in a bar, regardless of whether there is an "inapproriate" comedian or not. A coffeehouse is considered a much more respectable place to hang out, at least where I live. See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh De'ah 114:1.
Shpitz, you are partially correct that levish should not be related to behavior and your superiority in tznius should not be used as ammunition against you in other areas, but you surely are aware that the first indicator of a person's penimius (inside) is their chitzoniyus (outside). People expect higher standards in everything from people who dress to higher standards. Unfair to you maybe, but a fact of life. You don't expect every second guy in a $5K suit to be a crackhead, but are reasonably sure every second punk is.
Watching an adult comedy show isn't that much of a big deal. At worst, it's a violation of moshav leitzim. See, I'm more liberal than you think :-)
Our taboos and views on sex are twisted, no doubt, but the solution for that is not to dredge up everyone's dirt that's currently pushed under the carpet. A lot that's under the carpet would do better staying there, because some of it is chillul hashem according to any definition of the word. Yes, change in that area would be good, but we must be careful not to go all-out-crazy-no-holds-barred just because what we're doing now is insane too.
We (family) visited Amishtown (Strasburg, PA) a while back. The Amish stared us up and down as si'z geven ah mechayah and we were in stitches. They couldn't figure out who or what we were.
Shpitzle –
Please don’t be offended, but once Semgirl is quoting Gemorahs allow me to do so too.
The Gemorah in Kiddushin (40a) states that if one is overcome by desire to do something inappropriate and can not stop himself, he should at least change his clothing and go to a place where people won’t recognize him. In my opinion, attending an Adult show falls into this category. If someone really can’t leave, at least they shouldn’t appear Frum.
As for the Jewish nose; studies have proven that it is nothing but a myth. No more than 14% of Jews have hooked noses. Here is a link, if you’re interested.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trib08.htm
Leapa How could we forget?? LOL! Really, I think the whole “I can’t shake your hands scene” is not very comfortable for the ladies/men with the hanging hands. Isn’t there a way to get around it without all the fuss?
Gavi Oish. Ever hear of the words ‘bar mitzvah’? C’mon boy. Bars HAVE the mitzvah seal.
The whole issue of entertainment conflicting with halacha requires a post in itself.
As for dress, while you are technically right that it is ‘largely a choice’ in reality it is not so. Family relationships, shidduchim and even marriages are effected by a change in levish.
Skel Great, great comment, thanks!
Oh, sure. I’m not saying the dredging up part is the solution to fixing the situation. The carpet just leaves me in the blank about my people, a situation I’m not very fond of. Besides, hiding things under the carpet sits in the place of FIXING the problems.
What actually is the solution? Or is there one? What can we change from what we do now without violating halacha? More sex ed maybe?
IFT Why, I can handle it. I appreciate your feedback, and respect that for such a frum person you have an enormous sense of balance.
And well, it’s ironic that I end up getting two drinks for the price of one tonight. Not only do we get to go out a bit, we also play around with our levish there too… (No, I'm not ecstatic about the deal)
I think the whole kiddish hashem idea has been taken to a distorted level. How many people actually respect us for proving ourselves as fanatics? I think a yungerman and veible that seem well put together and down to earth are really what brings our people respect, even if they’re somewhere doing something that’s not 100% right. I’d rather we all stand in line for the next Broadway show in full garb then yell into the Eyewittness News camera about this rabbi and that protest and that chillul shabbos.
Honestly, I feel like 'I' despite my halachic shortcomings make a bigger kiddish hashem by showing my appreciation for this life without undermining my sense of self.
The carpet just leaves me in the blank about my people, a situation I’m not very fond of.
Don't be such a yenta ;-)
Besides, hiding things under the carpet sits in the place of FIXING the problems.
Depends on the problem. For example, we know that there is a shtickl alcohol and narcotic problem in our communities, right? At any given point in time, there are some people abusing substances, legally or illegally. Pushing it under the carpet would be saying "Nah, nobody in our community does substance abuse! Nobody!" But digging under the carpet, in the "heimishe" yenta sense, generally means one thing: Passing around everyone's dirt. That has never helped anyone, especially in a place like ours where gossip is currency that is invested in savings account to bear interest years later when the 'baredte' party has to do shidduchim with their kids.
What actually is the solution? Or is there one? What can we change from what we do now without violating halacha? More sex ed maybe?
Sticking our heads out of the sand would be a good idea, followed by disbanding chassidus so that people can think clearly about relevant problems instead of ver si'z ah gressere shtrick :-)
There is a solution, or at least a partial one, but it goes against too much of what we're taught. WE NEED TO REEMPHASIZE HALACHAH, at a level that the average Yoelish and Chanie can keep satisfactorily. This is something I like to say: A ruv's job is to be mattir things, not asser them. Asseren ken yeder far zich. If a person does not want to do something, he'll just decide on his own that it's assur. If he really wants or needs it and asks a rav, that means he's hoping for a heter and the rav should try to find one, not vice versa veil dus ken yeder. Instead of hocking and brucking against people going to Florida, how about instituting shalom bayis classes on couples going out for kosher forms of entertainment every once in a while? The first rav that tells a couple to go skiing (a sport in which people are so dressed you can hardly see them at all!) or snowtubing, should get a chunk of olam haba or a medal, at least. There are so many sports and other activities that are 100% halachically ausgehalten, but that are implicitly "assured" or at least frowned upon. The result is that people lose their judgement and say "If I can't do anything ausgehaltenerheit, then I'll just do whatever I want otherwise", which is very wrong.
More sex ed would be a good step in the right direction too. It's frightening what they teach here as "halachah".
I would like to throw in my my 2 cents (yep, thats all its worth)on the definition of chilul hashem.
Chilul hashem is not defined by the way you are dressed.
If you come in some place and you are regognised that you are jewish and you acknoladge that it is wrong for you to be there and you are only there as a human being that likes to have fun dosent mean you are mechalel shem shumayim.
You are acknoladging, yes it is wrong to be there but you are not strong enough to resist what you are saying is, that YOU are a weak person.
You dont make any statemnt to desacrate Hashems name.
You can find hundreds of frum men at sport bars now that its football season. chassidim go crazy acting all strange making a chillul hashem.
Chillul hashem means doing something that is morally wrong in the eyes of the beholders, not something that is wrong according to some segments of the chassidish population. You may be doing something against halachah by going to a Broadway show, but that doesn't mean it's more of a chillul hashem than a secularly-dressed Jew going to one, because there is nothing inherently morally wrong with a decent show.
Machlokes, going to the WIC office with a $2K diamong ring, and talking down to cleaning 'goytes' are real instances of chillul hashem. Our definition of chillul hashem is most certainly warped.
(IFT, that gemara you are referring to is not so much about chillul hashem, it is about a person not causing embarrassment and shame to himself, family, and friends if his deed becomes known. Hashem is after all a yodeia kol, no matter how one dresses or where one travels to commit a sin)
you have a great sense of humor in your posts.. but i have tio say.. this one made me so sad..
2 comments..
"And made a kiddish hashem by convincing another goy that intimacy does not exist in our community (hole-in-sheet theory) ? "
adult shows are not about intimacy, its about the opposite.
its about getting rid of the intimacy and objectifying something holy. why would someone who doesnt beleive in that want to be associated with that.
"I always hear the “you’ve-got-the-levish, you-should-act-it.” I really don’t think it’s fair. Why do I have to behave better? Because my mother wanted me to dress in a specific way?"
no you should dress that way because YOU want to, and if you want to, you should act accordingly..
or else who are all these charades for?
btw, would you have felt just as comfortable staying there if you kenw the room was full of jews? you know even in the most hick places you will find jews who look exactly like the non jews.. and the effect of seeing religious jews act this way is so powerful and long lasting.. its just sad.
Skel,
Our community has a lot of problems, for as much as I love it. But I don’t think the source is chassidishkeit. That’s merely the name of the judgmental people we have evolved into. It’s our attitude that needs fixing and I don't see how chassidis brought that about.
In the spirit of humor I’ll accept the ‘yenta’ title. I’m not gonna deny the fact that I enjoy a really rich slice of gossip, hmmm-ahhh, but I don’t necessarily channel yentashaft.
Yes, exposing a singular situation will hurt that person, but allowing ourselves to be a little more honest leaves us all vulnerable enough not to lick into the gossip the way we typically do. If we all live with fewer carpets around we won’t have the right to talk about yenem’s sins – as we have our own. True, if I could admit that I blog, and you that you --- (Shuffle. Shuffle. I find nothing under your carpet. Damn!) then we will sort of come out of that veil of perfection into a little more individuality consequently exposing the real innocent ones to our wrongdoings. A war can’t be fought without casualties. (why don’t I feel very guilty about that? Maybe because I am under the crippled impression that their life isn’t too healthy this way either?)
Just a note, I’m not looking for the huge scandals buldging under there. Just the “hu? (faint) she bought a ______?” mantra we all put up while we ourselves are often guilty of this type of crime too.
Your points on dayonim and are ideally fantastic, although I think a rav, with all his power, cannot be mater enough according to the Torah in order for a couple to achieve satisfaction.
As for entertainment… Used to be a day I too had a dream that we could kasher entertainment. But if you come to think of it, we now observe Torah’s Moshe called “Sepast Nisht”. A woman to ski, her whole 30 year-very-old body exercising in the cold, can bring bad machshooves for men. Or maybe, here’s a thought, we should buy separate mountains, one men’s and one women?
Where do we find a happy medium between restrictions and recreation?
Kiddish Hashem – I’m still trying to understand, is Kiddish hashem about BEING impressive or showing off our halachas? Does a goy have to respect us in the first place or become convinced of our rules? Does Kiddish Hashem even involve the goy’s opinion in the first place?
IF, as many noted, Kiddish Hashem is about showing that we abide to our Torah then we have to go back to lobbying Blumberg. Forget your tickets to Mamma Mia.
Kiryas Yoel Very interesting point BTW. Although, I’m personally not very fond of this agreement, the I-do-it-anyway-because-I-will-feel-giulty. If you think it’s right, do it. If you think it’s wrong, don’t.
Thanks, 2 cents in thoughts can be pretty valuable.
Anon Hey, and how would you know ;)?
What do you consider a chillul hashem? How do they behave?
Shpitz said,If you think it’s right, do it. If you think it’s wrong, don’t.
My point is, it dosent matter what I think.
We have a Torah and that is our guideline. Now,when u do something against the Torah does it mean that you are saying it dosent matter what the Torah says I'll do it anyway(that is BTW the real defintion of chilul Hashem) or you are saying I'm sorry I know I'm wrong but I dont have the strength to hold back.
Dont you think there is a big difference there?
Limey - The reason a goy would go up to you would be either because he's previously learnt that Jewish couples are offended or because he thinks I will be offended, due to my modest levish. I doubt he was embarresed by the show.
Anymookie - Much of your comment was previously discussed. I will reiterate for those that are not familiar with this community that levish is not really a choice. Levish is inherited and if changed can be social suicide.
Ahh, if only the world would be as simple as it seems. Hey, I think my blog space would stand empty 'n smiling.
What if there were other Jews in the room? And really, what if another goy thought "wow, a religious couple in such a bar!". You might not like the new level of innocence they have discovered in us, but they discovered nothing they need to (or probably will) disrespect, and that's what's important.
Just 2 cents more, chilul Hashem is based on a principle or criteria not examples. Go find and learn the foundation on what chilul Hashem is based on then you wont need so much examples
KY - Aha, I get what you're saying. There is a big difference indeed.
As for CH, we are merely defining the criteria by example.
"no you should dress that way because YOU want to, and if you want to, you should act accordingly..
or else who are all these charades for?"
Mook,
Do YOU want to wear a shpizel on your head? Are ALL YOUR actions in sync with your desires?
Of course in an ideal world we would all behave in the same manner as we dress. But *our ideal world* has become an oxymoron, to put it mildly.
My grandfather back in Hungery shaved his beard as did most of his other compatriots. Only the rav and the shochet in shtot did not, because they were the spiritual elite, and expected to behave that way.
Shpizel doesn't wear the shpizel because she wants to. She wears it because she HAS to.
Instead of judging her, say a new blessing everyday that you were lucky enough not to be brought up in her society.
Yes, the reason 'chassidishkeit' is the source of our problems is that 'chassidishkeit' has replaced halachah or proper guidance. The entire misig of 's'past nisht' is nothing but a "chassidishe" invention, although I've heard the Litvishe velt is green with envy and trying to get their hands on it too. In addition, the age-old system of having a RUV, not a rebbe, for halachic and spiritual guidance has been upended as all most of us have today is rebbelech and it is no secret that most rebbelech are NOT fit for this job, to serve as spiritual leaders to large and diverse kehillos. Plenty of them are not even learned enough- they cannot adequately replace what used to be a 'shtoot ruv'. An ideal shtoot ruv amuhl was able to cater spiritually to the talmidei chachamim, baal baatim, and am haaratzim. Today all three segments are neglected (although true am haaratzim hardly exist nowadays).
I did not ch"v mean to call you a yenta in a derogatory fashion. I was simply describing what I've found to be true: That when something unsavory happens, it unfortunately becomes juicy gossip material with 99.9% of the gossip carriers not giving a damn about the truth or matzav behind the story. If you think about it, behind every juicy story there's a sad metzius of blood and tears. If we can't lose the ostrich mentality with community education (because it isn't 'ausgehalten' to learn about such goyishe zachen like abuse, substance abuse, gambling, or STDs) we will never lose the immature yenta mentality either. This doesn't mean exposing the sins or perceived sins of others - it means educating ourselves and our children in the sense how it could apply to us. Right now we do not live under a 'veil of perfection' either - the yenta gezelshaft (consisting of both males and females!) takes care to dispel that myth, gleefully pointing out everyone's wrongdoings. What needs to change more than everything else is the mentality of what's right and wrong, not the einredenish that we are a perfect society, which nobody believes anyway or else we wouldn't be ripping into each other the way we do.
Your points on dayonim and are ideally fantastic, although I think a rav, with all his power, cannot be mater enough according to the Torah in order for a couple to achieve satisfaction.
You are sadly (for you) mistaken. More proof that the society we live in is twisted beyond belief. Halachah allows for more, much more, than you think, provided one isn't trying to be a chusid along the lines of R' Yosi Hakohen.
A woman to ski, her whole 30 year-very-old body exercising in the cold, can bring bad machshooves for men. Or maybe, here’s a thought, we should buy separate mountains, one men’s and one women?
Where do we find a happy medium between restrictions and recreation?
To men who are attracted to mummies tightly wrapped in dark colors? Men who are turned on by seeing a vague overstuffed figure passing on a pair of skis? Where are these perverted men? ;-)
The happy medium should be halachah. Bare bones halachah. And that's it. Ver s'vil zein frimmer in heiliger, ashrei lo. Anyone who finds that he/she cannot accommodate his/her tastes according to this medium is not someone that can be accommodated within a halachic framework in tzi azelche mentschen ken men nisht reden.
i guess as a survivor of "social suicide" i dont find it that scary..
certainly not a reason not to be true to yourself.
and the world is AS simple.. i create my world - as simple or as complicated as i choose..
Hoezentragerin..
thats ridiculous. i was brought up in one society an at a much younger age than shes at, i left it behind and joined a new society. she deosnt wear anything because she HAS to, she wears it because she wants to stay part of this society.
nobody wants to leave their family/friends/society behind, but truth seeking, honest, real people follow their hearts/minds/souls and not their neighbours.
anyway, my point was not that she or anyone else shouldnt dress that way - if they dont want to leave that society behidn thats their choice - but then, i think, they have a responsability to act accordingly.
My dear friend HZ…. I mostly agree with your extremely articulate response. However I have three questions, I apologize if they seem silly or naïve.
First of all, as you know, HZ from our long cyber-relationship, I have often done things or had experiences that weren’t exactly ‘oisgaaltin’, nevertheless, they always fell under the category of things that would be classified as ‘wholesome PG’, by American non-Jewish society. What compels Shpitz or any other member of her community to go to an adult show in a bar as opposed to a dolphin show at Sea World, for example.
Second, whoever is ‘making’ Shpitz, wear a Shpitzl obviously wouldn’t be schepping nachas from her being by the show. So once she is already there why cant she wear a beach hat with a fall, and a long colorful Floridian skirt to blend in and not draw attention to herself.
Finally, if her society is as onerous as you describe to be mehayiv one to make an additional blessing that one wasn’t born into it, Im reminded of a story I once read about the old Satmar Rebbe…
Once a eyed came to Reb Yoel Ztz”l, and said that he was offered a job as a shochet in Rio De Janeiro
Which paid very well but they would only allow him to wear his Streiml, but not the Vaissa Zuchin.. The Rebbe asked, ‘un ven siz du blutter vuz teet der Rebbe’ . The eyed said “Der Rebbe gait in steevil “ . The Rebbe replied “siz nisht du a gresserer blutter vi si nisht hubin a parnosa” (sorry if the Yiddish is a lil off). And the Yeed moved to Argentina.
If it as unpleasant as you say HZ, so that we should all thank Hakodosh Boruch Hu, we weren’t born into it, I would think one would want to move away from the blutter (the mud) …
Wow! It seems that there is a under-the-carpet chassidishe obsession with skiing that I never knew about.
That'll be the day we get heimisha on the slopes. A more realistic pastime is sitting and yenting in a warm alpine log cabin with a heisa kako and some kigel brought from home, watching the fit blond goyim with cool sunglasses and spandex ski pants tackle a hill of moguls. After a tiring day of this we head to the shvitz with a cold cup of mayim chayim seltzer to soothe those aching muscles.
Ah a mechaye.
Hoezerin Amen, Amen. Thank you!
Skel Ey, voos zull eech zoogin tsee dir. You do make marvelous arguments.
1. Not that it makes any difference, I was just pointing out that although we, Chassidim, are very restricted it is not as a result of chassidis in particular. It is the close knit environment the chassidish establishment evolved into. Giving up chassidis (becoming litvish? cool!) wouldn’t really fix anything. We need a more fundamental change.
You’re right about the rabbinical system. This is a problem in itself. Our biggest problem is of the people, by the people and for the people. (Am I quoting it wrong?)
2. No amount of education quenches the thirst for gossip. Look all over the world. Tabloid business is booming. Café 28 once pointed out that the yenta crisis is a result of lack of entertainment; it’s the most interesting thing to talk about when the other options include recipes and chinuch lessons. But it’s not the yenta thing solely that bothers me, we, as a people, are all under that carpet. Not just our garbage, but our entire selves. We are a community of strangers.
3. As for sex and halacha, I don’t really like what I know. I think we should test your argument by completing the new jewish sex survey, in a format that is halacha at its max, and then show it to a sex therapist. You might be right, but what would a specialist say: Are we set up for practicality?
4. Look, honey. You beat me cause you got a damn good example. Being able to ski isn’t gonna fix our problem. One sport hardly qualifies as recreation. But even that has problems. Many women are pregnant and would rather go to a performance, while others are nursing and can’t ‘botch up’ what maxi health and all the 182 shakes are doing for them. (The men are not counted in, they will get into the Olympics after one fly off the mountain. They’re so --- graceful… due to all the workout, of course.)
Anymookie everyone should do what suits them best. If leaving your fold is what you needed, then kudos to you girl! I for one would like some improvement, and then some more, but this place is home for me, and nothing will ever beat that.
Semgirl Obe Dolphins iz di only place di bust gegangin ever demult vet di Satmar-Rebby zayn very shtults mut dir shefele! (you velcome to convert by us).
Changing levish is a real matter of convenience and can also feel very costumey. Either way, I don’t agree that one should.
(I hope you don't mind, but I had a good laugh at your yiddish's expense.)
CYL (lol!) Go on, go on! I’m entirely escaped in the fantasy! I’m drooling - that’s where the icicles here came from.
lol...very funnyyy
Be happy youre in america...where anything goes
I was in the subway station a few weeks ago and some guy was sitting in a suit..and orange shoes with a milk carton upside doen on his head as if it were the most normal thing.
No one looked twice at him..lol
I still like you, Shpitz....laugh all you want..I have a human hair Sheitl appt this afternoon and you dont..
Semgirl,geography must have not been your favorite subject in sem.
You start off the story about the satmar Rebe that the yid was offered a job in Rio and you finish by saying he moved to Argentina.
Semgirl, your questions are so good, I think I should become your chavruse :)
"First of all, as you know, HZ from our long cyber-relationship, I have often done things or had experiences that weren’t exactly ‘oisgaaltin’, nevertheless, they always fell under the category of things that would be classified as ‘wholesome PG’, by American non-Jewish society."
Semgirl, attending Christmas mass would certainly be the *wholesome PG American non- Jewish* thing to do. But wouldn't your going there be a horrible chillel hashem?... I don't know if I agree to your defining criterion of what constitutes a chillel hashem
"Second, whoever is ‘making’ Shpitz, wear a Shpitzl obviously wouldn’t be schepping nachas from her being by the show. So once she is already there why cant she wear a beach hat with a fall, and a long colorful Floridian skirt to blend in and not draw attention to herself."
You might have a shtikel point here, but I'm not even sure which transgression this *whoever* would find more troubling; Shpizel's going to the show, or defiling herself by wearing that tomene geaserte fall.
"If it as unpleasant as you say HZ, so that we should all thank Hakodosh Boruch Hu, we weren’t born into it, I would think one would want to move away from the blutter (the mud) … "
I guess Shpizel chooses to stay in the mud as long as she is rolling along there with her family, loved ones, and friends. That's her prerogative, and dare I say that many of us choose to do the same.
KY..I was wondering myself about that last night. Im still not sure where Rio is..
David A milk carton? Sure they didn’t get paid by the Got Milk corp for doing it?? Only in NY kids, only in NY.
Semgirl Baby, you are on! I am gonna put on this K-Mart beach-white long wig that flows all over my mouth, come over there and wup your…! (lmao! Keep up the humor pal!)
KY Thank you teacha.
Hoezen Well, thank you again for saying it. I didn’t dare explain the unexplainable, that indeed, our priorities are so screwed up. How funny, things that have always seemed logical to me suddenly seem ridiculous. For example, how ek velt it is to tamper with levish.
Hi, I agree with some of the previous posts, about Chilul Hashem if we dress a certain way, we should behave the same. I must ad sex or sex oriented jokes material etc. should ONLY be enjoyed in the bedroom. Yes, sex is meant to be enjoyed in every shape or form!
Shpitzel, Jewish nose or not: we do carry a message that we are above the nations, all men are not created equal. We don’t do things that the goy does. So saying to the guy in the bar its ok I can handle that, in my humble opinion, is not acceptable.
Frumcouple, thanks for the comment. What makes you decide which halachas are applicable and which not?
Yes, sex should be enjoyed in EVERY shape and form. Your logic.
Yes, a chillul hashem means acting immoral only. My logic!
Interesting post!
Your tichel is anytime nicer then the weird looking bonnet the Amish women wear.
I don't think it was your nose that gave it away. Its always the chasidish looking husbands who give it away.
Interesting how everyone has a different perspective what's a Chilul Hashem and what's not...
Who says a tichel is a higher madriga? Its a chasidisha levish decided by some once upon a time tzadik not by God...
IM attracted to your way of thinking shpitzle!
Shpitz - Look up Rambam Issurei Biah 21:9. Yoelish will be glad to translate.
Skiing was just an example - surely there are many more forms of entertainment that are mostly or completely halachically OK. I was using it to illustrate a point of something that is completely OK halachically yet so frowned upon. But question for you (and the other commenters here): If something was not allowed halachically, would you still do it?
P.S. You need a major disclaimer that the "adult" show in question was a comedy show (hopefully) not involving pole dancing or the like before one more comment berating you for it gets posted. Sheesh.
JBF - was it Avraham Avinu who warned Yitzchak against marrying a girl who wears a sheitel made out of kna'ni hair?
This is basically irrelevant to the subject, but I've known many European Chassidim to go skiing in the Swiss Alps. I've been there myself with them. It's very popular with the Antwerpen and Zirich crowd.
I love the way the people who are not chassidish in their levish think that they don't look jewish with their wigs, long skirts, tznius tops - you think they don't know your Jewish?
Like someone mentioned its a cultural thing the levish its doesn't and shouldn't represent the person or the sect.
It reminds me of the time when some one yelled at my father in europe for wearing a tallis in the street on shabbos because of anti semitism - like they don't know all those black hatted, suited men coming out of the big stained glass building are Jewish!! Who are they kidding.
Chilul Hashem.
Think of how you would look at a guy with a turban in a topless bar.
Or how you would look at a Muslim couple, wearing their gear, making out in public.
Yes, our sages were smart enough to fix us up for life.
what are you guys dong here corrupting a innocent ehrlicha yididshe neshuma???
here is the rambam mentioned
"A man’s wife is permitted to him. Therefore a man may do whatever he wishes with his wife. He may have intercourse with her at any time he wishes and kiss her on whatever limb of her body he wants. He may have natural or unnatural sex, as long as he does not bring forth seed in vain. However, it is a sign of piety not to show too much levity but to sanctify himself at the time of intercourse… A man should not depart from the way of the world and its custom because its ultimate purpose is procreation. (Mishnah Torah Issurei Biah 21:9)
The Rambam himself ends that verse by saying that it is a midos chasidos no to... and In shulchan aruch 240 it is clearly asur
here's an article on the subjact to check out http://www.chayas.com/ksex.htm#response
so, u attecking the teacher-shtrimpkind here with a ramabm, which is in fact not acepted by the shulchan aruch...
) שו"ע אורח חיים סימן רמ
(ד) אסור להסתכל .... שכל המסתכל שם אין לו בושת פנים ועובר על והצנע לכת ומעביר הבושה מעל פניו שכל המתבייש אינו חוטא דכתיב ובעבור תהיה יראתו על פניכם זו הבושה לבלתי תחטאו ועוד דקא מגרה יצר הרע בנפשיה וכל שכן הנושק .... שעובר על כל אלה ועוד שעובר על בל תשקצו את נפשותיכם:
this belongs more to the first half of this discussion, but i'll still post it.
here is a nice discussion on the matter, of changing L'vush and behavior when on vacation, and about the rules you abide by just because the society you live in
http://aworkinggirl.blogspot.com/2006/09/double-standards.html
Some claim it's hypocrisy, others claim i do it at home only to fit in, but that's the real me!
Skel:Are you that holy that whatever Abraham avinu warned thousands of years ago you follow through? I wonder what he would have warned us about the internet? Wake up and look in what world we live in. Wearing a tichel means shit you and I know it. They are just like the rest of us if not more open minded in a very wrong way way.
Im not generalizing, Just like not all wig wearing women are shiksas. It is very narrow minded of our community to say that the tichel wearing women go straight to heaven. What about living a lie? Starts there so who are you to say whats right or wrong? How sad the norm in this community is to judge ones sins/madriega through levish..Pathetic!
Whatever!
Do you think by eiber kien dei zelba verter all day long and bring pzikem from who knows where you will change the world?
Each and every one of us do what they want and believe what they wish to anyway. Its up to G-d after we all die who goes to hell or not.
Ex said: "Yes, our sages were smart enough to fix us up for life."
Fixed us up? Are you blind? Look around you everything is corrupted.
Gee I wonder if the bartender serving our holy sages at the kreitchma was hot?
I will say it again and again who the heck are you people to decide whats right or wrong? your hieliga verter means shit online!
You may not want to post this..Shpitz
I put my husband to work today..
Shulchan Aruch OC
It is forbidden to stare at that place (the vaginal region) because whoever stares there has no shame whatsoever and transgresses "and you shall be a holy nation" and causes shame to himself as it says and you shall fear my face this is shame.and also it arouses and incites the Yetzer Hara in and of itself , and all the more so someone who kisses trangresses all of this, makes himself repulsive and violates 'bal tishaksu'
However look up the Tshuvas from the Debreciner and R Henkin Ztz"l brought in the Otzar HaPoskim that seem to say that when we say noshaik we mean inside not the outer vaginal lip.
Nuch, you're censoring the Shulchan Aruch's words? Oso Mokom is not a four-letter word
Rio is in Brazil.Carnival anyone?
JBF
With "fixed us up" I meant to say, "make us feel uncomfortable in certain enviroments".
Is it clear enough for you this time??
Oh I have to comment on what you said.
"Are you that holy that whatever Abraham avinu warned thousands of years ago you follow through? "
Hello??? I pity the life you have to live, and for the above, I pity your life after you live.
No need to pity look yourself in the mirror! Worry about your own sins. Ill be fine.
Nuch a chusid - I hate saying this in a public forum because it can be misconstrued too easily, but I'll try. Yes, we do try to follow shulchan orach. But there are valid differing opinions (in various areas, not davka marital intimacy) and some things in shulchan orach are "instructions in piety" not commonly followed by the hamon am. Do you think most people prave tikkun chatzos or daven vasikin or only uncover a tefach when in the beis hakisa (SA Orach Chaim siman aleph)?
This is a delicate area, and must be dealt with delicately to preserve the kedusha in our lives while providing marital satisfaction to husband and wife. Couples should know, that more than they think is allowed when intents are pure, and less than they think is allowed when intents aren't.
Of course I can spew the gemara about the husband overturning the table and whether fish can be eaten fried, baked, or cooked in the same breath as quoting Ima Shalom on 'conversing' only in the middle of the night and why the only "good" position is missionary, but at least you get the 'kik' that things weren't always this way. Trying to enhance our kedushah is good, but not when it comes at such a tremendous expense to marriages.
Bottom line: It's good to have a rav you trust you can ask.
JBF - Too bad you missed my little joke (which in no way implied women in tichlech are better than others, but was merely in reply to your outrageous statement that tichlech were invented by chassidishe rebbes). You are projecting horribly. Wearing a tichel does not mean [excrement - your language is horrible]. It only means that the person may or may not have a tichel round their mind and heart as well as their head, but they do deserve to be lauded for wearing the tichel provided they don't think it makes them better than everyone else. Faktish geredt, it's not easy sacrificing beauty as well as an "image" by wearing a tichel instead of a shaitel, and because the person isn't holier-than-thou inside doesn't mean that you shouldn't give credit where it's due, even if it's only partial credit.
Each and every one of us do what they want and believe what they wish to anyway. Its up to G-d after we all die who goes to hell or not.
Right, because who cares about G-d on this earth? Let's do what we want here and then let G-d decide where we go.
Oi leuznei sheshamei es zeh.
just little note to semgirl
It wasn't right the way you knocked the shpitzel wearing woman, i am sure u know that some shpitzlech and covered syntathic, still look better then others in human hair sheitels,
and above all its not what ON the head that matters most, but what's IN the head
Skeleton summed it up well, that you need to have a ruv for guidance
and hasid-letz u r right!!
Uyyyyyy!
Years ago I was having an argument with a coworker who maintained that one could always tell who the Jews were, something about how they looked and acted. After trying to convince her that she was insane for half an hour, I told her "look, I'll prove it, I'm a Jew!"
She immediately crowed "I knew it!!!"
All my other coworkers then admitted that they too had known it all along. Yep, it had been clear to them from day one.
I must admit that this came as a complete surprise to me, I had no idea it was that glaringly obvious.
Especially as the family tree is overwhelmingly Calvinist and Presbyterian, with only a leavening of Anglicans and other Protestantim.
Not a Jewish person in the bunch.
[I know this because I know my family tree all the way back to the black death.]
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