Wednesday, November 08, 2006

Immodest Modesty

My shabbos evenings are sometimes very enlightening. As a Jewish mother in the city, my afternoon outings extend to the end of the gates on the window. While the kids, in sweaters, watch the cars go by, I watch out for the latest Chassidic fashion trends.

This shabbos I enjoyed a particular sight that spoofed this yenta’s interest. A young girl, about 17, was rushing down the block. Under a very short (and I’m learning, stylish) jacket I identified what was a popular long robe.

Her face spelled innocence. I guessed she was still in school and was learning all about a Jewish girl’s ‘kroyn’; her modesty. To her the defintion of an immodest girl is probably something about hair being a quarter inch below the chin, a sweater with a neck one can breathe out of, or stockings that aren't winterized. One very bold crime on her list is going outside in a long robe.

The poor girl had no idea she was doing something that she might need to knock another slicha into her heart for. She simply held the robe up, gathering all the fabric in something that resembled a flower at her crotch. Her rear, well, I’ll say it left very little to the imagination.

It got me to wonder if the emphasis on modesty without understanding its purpose doesn’t sometimes do exactly what we are trying to avoid, make a sexual statement.

As kids my parents would be very careful about keeping the boys and girls apart. We’d run out of the bathtub with the naked tush and Mother would frantically yell for the boys not to look. Well, it didn’t last long till they really wanted to look.

For now I let my children bath together and don’t make a big deal about it. I don’t think I’ll make a fuss about the grown up boy giving ‘shalom’ for the sister when he comes home from yeshiva either. I don’t think I’ll angrily talk about an immodest woman’s top so much, putting adjectives to it as ‘horrible’ and ‘so mees’.

The key to our structural homes is modesty, but we cannot explain the concept to our children until a few days before one gets ready to build his/her own home. So we set rules with hopes that it’ll keep us on the right track. We think up the most drastic methods and let our good hearted kids take it to their own extends...

Those hardly-bar-mitzvah boys walking with their face stuck in the side walk. The girls walking into a busy road when a man comes their way. The seventeen year old bochur’ll that’s hesitant to take the plastic glasses off, even when the mother says he’s ready. The girl that insists her mother must buy her four sizes bigger clothing…

All this is nice. The intentions are so pure. It’s a kiddish hashem.

So long as it doesn’t defeat the purpose.

71 comments:

Hm said...

True Modesty is so much deeper...

Y.Y. said...

this post is just blabbing
nothing to add
ill wait for some interesting comments to emerge

reluctant rebel said...

Gotta agree with you on this, modesty is overated (okay maybe that is'nt what you meant). But if someone doesn't have it in them, no matter how many rules you place, the meaning behind it gets lost (okay I'm not expressing myself well so I'll just stop)

YY, if you don't have anything to add, why be rude? Just because it doesn't intrest you doesn't mean it doesn't intrest anyone else.

JewishBiFemme said...

Great post!

Modesty is a natural born thing for Jewish women since birth...

I remember my innocence at 17..So true what you're saying...I see these young preteen boys sometimes taking off their glasses so not to see us women..Its interesting but I kinda love to see people are still like that. Must be a good feeling for the mother, though she is not guarantee he will be like that a few years later...

As for giving "shalom" to a sister when coming home from Yeshivah not in my house. If my sleeve would innocently be bit above my wrists I would get a slap for that..Try growing up with 5 brothers I could'nt even have sleep over friends cause of modesty issues..I dont see being that strict did any good...Today I see how everyone handles those issues and its a nachas!! WOW! What a difference you bathe your kids together? both sexes? In a shpitzle home? im teasing! yeah its almost 2007!!!!

As for stage freight...You express yourself just fine!

Unlike my comments before (cause I didn't really read much of your blog) I must say you come across as a highly intelligent, well educated woman. You are a great writer and have a natural way with words..

Your posts are interesting, controversial, funny, The issues you discuss feels very close at home & brings back amazing memories.

You inspire me!

I have the utmost respect for Mrs. shpitzle

p.s. ignore rude comments they are just bored & get a kick out of it.

Y.Y. said...

hey i wasnt being rude sorry

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

JBF,

First welcome back. I congratulate you on your courage and hope we can all be more acceptant of each other this time around. We're all entitled to our opinions and comments and should not hesitate to voice them.

I would also like to apologize for any previous insults. We all live and learn, and for me, this was an important lesson. We should not rush into judging others.

Now, where were we?
It's cute the way all these kids make such a fuss about being tsnuis without realizing why they are doing it. My parents wouldn't permit handshakes either, and with the boyish impulses it often got very awkward. The slap you mentioned - yeah, that really reminds me of home!

As for the kids, ah, well, they're still young. I am shpitzle after all. I will have to put an end to it sooner or later...

Thank you for the encouraging words. Whew, aint I feeling good?......

YY, don't worry, you've just got this quirk where you say things at random. We get you now. No offense taken :)

Ex-Blogger said...

Shpitz, thanks for the new post, keep'em coming.

Good point.
I would also add to it, they have to teach them categories.
Wering only Brown,flat shoes-vaad hachinuch issue
Wearing long robes- Hisachdus issue,
Not exposing your body-Shulchan uroch issue
Touching- drabunun
Making love- doiraiseh
Intercourse-Kures

Now everything in a chasidish girls eyes are at the same level, therore when a girl violates -not handing over a paper to her bosses hand, she might as well do the real stuff.

Now, dont all start arguing about the significent indifferences, as I only intended to bring across my point.

Anonymous said...

claiming to be a mother of childeren (if your female at all) what are you doing posting at supper time?! there is dinner to be served childeren to be bathed and homework to do!

Captain said...

Car # 1 swerved to avoid a pothole in the road.
Car # 2 swerved to avoid a pothole in the road.
Car # 3 swerved to avoid a pothole in the road.
Cars # 4&5 swerved to avoid whatever it was that made the other cars swerve.
Car # 6 decided not to swerve, hit the pothole and had to pull over to inspect the damage.
Car #7 swerved because he didn't want to end up like car #6.
Car #8 swerved because everyone else did.
Car#9 swerved because he assumed it was something you had to do.
Car #10 swerved without giving it further thought.

The next morning, the pothole was fixed.
Car #10 still swerves every day.

It's All Good Now said...

I grew up in a Chassidishe house, and my own home is Chassidish as well, so I know exactly what you are talking about. However, one of the major differences between the house of my youth and the home I'm currently building is the difference between serving Hashem out of fear and serving Him out of love. Growing up, it was always "m'toor nisht" or "s'past nisht" or "voos veht d'gahss/d'sheel/d'community/d'fill-in-your-own-threat-here zoogen"?
In my own home, my husband and I try very hard to imbue our children with a sense of self-respect, as a Yid and as a person. And if one has self-respect, then he or she is bound to make the right choices for the right reason. One incident that came to mind when I read this post was when one of my daughters requested short-sleeved nightwear. I explained to her that Halachically it isn't a problem although she'll haveto cover up when she eats breakfast because she won't be able to make a brachah with exposed elbows. But I also added that while Halachically it wasn't a problem, it was a bit "off" from a tznius perspective, because it will make her feel a certain way, a way that she is not used to feeling. But I told her that the choice is her own. We agreed that for one week she can sleep in one of her brother's short sleeved t-shirts and she will decide after the week is up what she wants to do. Suffice it to say that at week's end, she didn't want the short sleeved nightwear anymore, and it was a lesson I could never have taught her with mere words for it was a lesson she learned through her own actions.

Hoezentragerin said...

"It got me to wonder if the emphasis on modesty without understanding its purpose doesn’t sometimes do exactly what we are trying to avoid"

When I was a kid, tznius was not one of the mizvies I cared much about only because it made no sense to me. It was only in my teens when I finally became edjumacated, that I started taking tznius more seriously.
I guess some of us aren't that good at "nase venishma"

Captain said...

Hoezen, I think it's because most of us (the average chasidish girl who went to a chasidish school) didn't know what tznius was.
Tznius was about conforming and not wearing anything that would make you stand out. Tznius was about not wearing "hendedige oiringlach", clunky shoes, or sweatshirts over the school uniform(gasp).
As shpitlze mentioned, tznius meant not wearing hair past shoulder length.

Hoezentragerin said...

Exactly, Captain,
Talking about the subject, there is a famous bal mechanech who claims that frum girls must have a basic sex ed for their physical safety and protection.
He has a point.

socialworker/frustrated mom said...

Interesting post.

Cool Chusid said...

Great post shpitzel!

My daughter came home from school with a paper explaineing "Bas Melech Penimo" that a girl shuld stay home friday night to daven before she goes out to play.

I didint know what to make of it. she is so cute and innocent and she basically is following orders without any clue why.

Its the parents/schools job to give solid fundumntals and not to confuse them.

we should have more of this discussion rather then posters enforcing a "No Shmula Gepasta Kleinder" zone.

nuch a chosid said...

This is an Important Issue, allthiugh I am still wondering when shpitzle is acting preacher and when she is acing rebbel, she is abit confusing.

Tzenious starts in the mind, but it doesnt end there, and chinuch for it has to come with love and understanding not m'toor nish!! but rather explain, and talk it out

You can be tzeniousidg and also look good, it's not an easy task walking the thin line, but if u hold your head straight, u can make it

Anonymous said...

"This is an Important Issue, allthiugh I am still wondering when shpitzle is acting preacher and when she is acing rebbel, she is abit confusing."

Preacher in theory...rebel in practice?

Anonymous said...

Dear Shpitzel,
Your post is in fact a human phenomenon that cuts across different cutures and religions. For example the Hindu women wear supposedly modest clothing. The problem is with the satiny clingling robes and some of them with very georgeous bodies and dark skin, dark eyed, thick charcoal hair, are actually quite exotic and sensual looking.
Sometimes the very modest code or cloth is the source for so much more sensuality.
I detect that this duality is an essencial theme in your blogs.

Anonymous said...

"nuch ain mal di tist es, oy vesty chapen petch!!!!
I dont have parents, i have birth parents and caregivers who didnt explain sh*t, but petch, ohhhh they knew how to give. i hate them for not trying to make things better.
i would always be on the edge, u say no red laces i do wear it just to see what ur gonna do, no black tights, hmm i wore them on sundays. what a freakin taliban. its all bout fear. well i hope this crazy culture will intermarry and good bye to them.
man even in camp where there was only girls they were restricting us for no good reason. no dance, no to singing to loud, mbd tapes were confiscated, dedi, miami boys chior, god i still despise my dad for not letting me express musicly. selfish ass.
i know thay didnt know any better but im still angry. no wonder i dont wanna touch anything even remotely connected to yiddishkiet. i do to keep my family life in order but deep down it has no logical meaning.
Saindy

Lakewood Venter said...

Once again, right on!

Anonymous said...

Saindy—it’s so sad that you feel that way, it’s so sad that I feel likewise, and it’s so sad that so many of us feel like this.

What can WE do for ourselves, to make US feel better? For one, I believe that since we are no longer restricted by the clutches of our parents that we take our "alone" time to do what we deem fun, OUR definition of fun. Let’s face it, there’s no need at this age to wear red laces or black stockings, but the need to live our own lives [some call it rebelling] is still insanely intact, and that can be achieved easily, now that we don’t depend on our parents for food and shelter.

Secondly, the cause of this resentment is so many times the result of the constant bickering of people who wanted US to conform to them. Well, we are no longer subjected to that—and if you are, try to get away as much as you can.

Wishing you all the best,
Love

Eli said...

nuch a chosid said... This is an Important Issue, allthiugh I am still wondering when shpitzle is acting preacher and when she is acing rebbel, she is abit confusing.

Haha what a good way of wording it, I also have that same feeling she is sort of a mix preacher and rebbel combined. :)

Ex-blogger said...

Wow this got serious here!!!
Come on ppl , keep it lite.


" I don’t think I’ll angrily talk about an immodest woman’s top so much, putting adjectives to it as ‘horrible’ and ‘so mees’."

If you tell your kids its Mees (ugly) you are simply LYING to them, and you know it.

PS JBF, not to have sleep overs at a house full of boys, is not a narrow-minded thing to do.

Anonymous said...

hey love anon, shaindy here,
i think rebel is the wrong word for kids defecting from an abusive culture, a culture that promotes lots of crap.
a rebel to me is someone who follows their passion. whether good or bad.
chasidic culture is very adament that the kids are not a inch different from them.
i have my own mind, likes, dislike, and i hate your culture where women arent equal, individualism crushed, the outside world, including modern jews are shunned. oh lets not forget the holier than thou attutude. it stinks to high heaven.
i can say 90% oh chasidim are living a double life. Why?
im doing it for my parents they say. i hate this bullsh*t. kids are not your possesions, i say to parents of 11! u dont own them, ur here to help them grow to a mature, emotionally healthy child whose able to leave ur house and live their own lives without u demanding them to wear "vaise zuken" cuz u might be embarrased to be seen with them.
my parents are ashamed of me. their f*uckin religion overides their natural emotion of unconditional love.
i wanna be able to have a relationship with my daughter eventhough she chooses a different lifestyle.
how selfish can a mother be to ask or threaten a child to be shunned, unless she conforms. well thats not a parent, thats an abusive person who happened to have delivered the child.
i sometimes hear, i want my child to be this, that, listen its not up to anybody but the child.
man theres no way im gonna get my msg across. i just might as well live my own life which im working very hard to peice together.
its like ive been born right after i left my parents house, like i had a stroke, and everytime i go back there i turn into that lil child who wants affection, understanding. its no use. i asked my mother, momy is there anything nice u can say bout me, the answer was no. thats how much she hates me just cuz i dont believe anymore.
well were both losing out, me a mom which i never had anyway, she the only daughter who ever understood her abuse. thats what chasidism has come down to.

nuch a chosid said...

one of the fellow bloggers among us, who has gone a far way fom her upbringing, openly admits that her parents never gave her "chinuch", instead the knocked her, and abused her, thats NOT chinuch. she had the ימין דוחה with no kiruv, it has to be שמאל דוחה and ימין מקרבת
which meens the main and direct way is kiruv, just to keep the kid focused u used a lilttle שמאל דוחה

nuch a chosid said...

ooops... is that you??

shaindy, that's not what chasidim have come down to, don't generalize, your parents failed, and still fail to see where they failed, not all are like that

wanting my kids to be like me, is a human thing, every human being wants his kid to grow up this or that, ask any goy, he wants hi kid to be a ball player, actor, doctor, thats NOT the problem, just how to get the kid to be that....
i dont know your mother, is she a holocoust survivor, that might be the reason she is like that, If your mother would've shown u more love and support, i guess u would've sticked closer to her, and to her lifestyle.

Hoezentragerin said...

"wanting my kids to be like me, is a human thing, every human being wants his kid to grow up this or that, ask any goy, he wants hi kid to be a ball player, actor, doctor, thats NOT the problem"

Chusid, since when is every human thing and *even* what the goy wants, realistic and right?
We are all individuals, and no, children are not extensions, carbon copies, or clones of ourselves.
Of course we can all want, hope, and pray that they turn out a certain way, but we can hope, want, and pray to win the lottery too....

Anonymous said...

right on hoizin!!! id love to see u in hoizin lol, lol. very good point.

Nuch a chosid. What does "oops...is that u" mean.
r u L. Sure hope soo. Shaindy

Leible said...

shaindy, shpit, nuch and all others

here is my 2 cents,
do as i say, was the way our parents were brought up so naturally that is what they are handing down to the next generation.
how many of our fathers said movies are treif and tuma and how many of our mothers sliped out of home to watch.
most of the probloms deep down in children are when they feel there parents do not REALLY mean it or they detect a nusence in the relationship.

giving petsh has its place but it should be tresured like a vacation (usuing it for special times and deeds)

Anonymous said...

klap an, laibel lol.
thanks for the input. my parents were aloud to read newspapers, watch in their bedroom, holy moly i found a bunch of porn, oh my gawd!!!!! did it ever freak me out. lol.
Well i shoulda stayed outa their private property, my bad lol.
mbd was forbidden, but radio was ok for my mom. well nowadays i realized that if i dont approve of my child reading people magazine for instance, i dont read it either. at least not in front of her.
i know they didn't know any better, but still its very inportant to express the anguish, pain and pent up emotions.
Shaindy

Anonymous said...

klap an, laibel lol.
thanks for the input. my parents were aloud to read newspapers, watch in their bedroom, holy moly i found a bunch of porn, oh my gawd!!!!! did it ever freak me out. lol.
Well i shoulda stayed outa their private property, my bad lol.
mbd was forbidden, but radio was ok for my mom. well nowadays i realized that if i dont approve of my child reading people magazine for instance, i dont read it either. at least not in front of her.
i know they didn't know any better, but still its very inportant to express the anguish, pain and pent up emotions.
Shaindy

cafe_28 said...

Shaindy, why the hell do you have to be anonymous if you sign off as Shaindy??

I was educated in Satmar, and since I was one of the more 'modern' girls, those damn Yiddish teachers made it their "feel-good" mission to make sure that I would fit the mold of those other students who were models of a 'satmar talmide'.
My 9th grade teacher made it a rule to talk to me every Sunday about something else that I should correct.
My 11th grade teacher picked on my every tiny little thing, she got some major enjoyment out of it.

Lemme just say, it all backfired, and they are all gonna pay for that.

Anonymous said...

Is this a Satmar fiesta? Is everyone here Satmar? I know JBF is.

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Anon 2:40 – I’m not sure if compliment was intended, but that was the nicest thing you could’ve said.

* * *

I know many of us out here are a little hurt at the cycle of Chassidic life. Some of our parents simply let the ball of life roll, as they got engaged, had children, and married those children off. Our duty in this world is to do all that, but since we have the torah that simply states all the rules, people sometimes do everything but understand the concept.

My main point in this post was exactly that. To stop living unconsciously. We obey the rules because we fear the consequences. Following the rules because we want to set up a beautiful Yiddish home for the Shchina to find a place in would not leave us with so many bruised children like Shaindy.

Becoming a mother or being a spouse are wonderful yet very trying jobs. Wanting our children to be like us is a ridiculous excuse to skip the upbringing process. Every child is unique and a parent needs to be able to tolerate differences.

That’s where this community needs to start. We have to accept all kinds. If Shaindy’s parent’s of Café’s teacher’s would not try to fit these people into a lifestyle as if it’s one-size-fits-all we’d have happier homes and better children.

We have to re-adjust our objective in life. It’s not the little things as four inches more on the robe or a inch less at the sleeve. It’s the big things, understanding and a lot of giving that brings about a Torahdig Jewish home.

* * *

Ex-blogger, I like your list. It point out the irony that we emphasize least on the most important item on the list.

Captain, On the bright side, if the pot would NOT be fixed the next day, car ten would not fall into the whole…get what I’m saying?

All Good, I’m not sure if your parents even kept the laws out of fear. They do it out of habit. Keeping the torah out of awareness brings about love.

Nuch a Chussed and Eli, I am both. Does it contradict? Why? It’s a popular myth that one must either be a rebel or ‘chanyuk’. I’m a preacher (opinionated) and a rebel (human). In almost every one of us, there is some of both.

Leible, maybe I’m naïve by saying this, but I really thing the rate of at-home-movies has grown considerably over the last twenty years. Don’t use the parent point as an excuse.

Does everyone think it’s about time I change the spelling on the blog name from ShpitzEL to ShpitzLE?

Anonymous said...

If Shaindy’s parent’s of Café’s teacher’s would...

car ten would not fall into the whole…

Please please please be careful with your spelling and grammar. It's annoying to us English teachers.

Anonymous said...

It is spelled SHPITZAL or SHPITZEL

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

For some reason the comments can't be fixed. I wanted to.

Ah, well, I need to get me an editor. I don't spell well and don't have the time to run them by the checker.

I've long realized that English teachers suffer from reading surface too much.

cafe_28 said...

From reading what too much?

BY student said...

Cafe you're in willie? You watch television? Im shocked to learn satmar girls are not what they are suppose to be. What is wrong with their chinuch system?

I would never guess you people are Satmar.

BY student said...

Women in Willie listen to country music? Somthing is wrong with this picture.

cafe_28 said...

I don't have a television, and country music is a lot more kosher than most other music genres out there that other Willies listen to.

What's wrong with the picture? Not everybody has to fit the mold of a model Satmar girl. There are all types.

Totally Content said...

Ditto Cafe.

Not everyone fits the mold. While there might be a proscribed preferred version - individuals do tend to differ.

Some of us, for instance. Are actual content. Totally content.

cafe_28 said...

Thanks, TC, for once agreeing with me.

JewishBiFemme said...

"Life is a performance not a dress rehearsal"

Proud to be Satmar, though Satmar is not proud of me cause I am a sexaholic lol..

My narrow mindness gets the best out of me at times but who would have thought we Satmar graduates (I bet most of you are my grade) would socialize ("united we stand") here in blog world. Though you associate with me offline (that's what counts) I bet you wont here in blog world.

"Not everybody has to fit the mold of a model Satmar girl. There are all types."

You know darn well we are being labeled as not the typical williamsburg Satmar girl cause we don't listen to kol m'vasar news, think independently. Or the way we dress. If only "all types" would be the norm... but the palm and the hats are the norm though we all know they are like you and me who listen to different music,movies,blogs etc.

Most of us are content (or maybe in denial) how content can one be when we do it all in hiding? Our teachers will die of shame if they know we Satmar girls or on the Internet "socializing" opinionating,shmoozing, or opening our minds with the opposite sex.

(I wont even mention the Satmar perverted lesbians lol)

we are often mistaken at times as "Amish" or women with limited education. It is fascinating and intriguing to know that Satmar women do have inquiring minds (so ive seen online on blogs) who are are beyond brilliant, talented, intelligent, open minded in every aspect of life, (excluding me of course)

chaverah said...

First time here, you bring up some good points. I myself always wonder about these ideas. Thanks for expressing it.

Anonymously annoyed said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
JewishBiFemme said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
your ok im ok said...

Hey Rechosen, as i recall u mentioned in your blog that u watch movies or dont adhere to all the rules. content?? ur not what they consider real satmer, btw satmer culture is screwed up real bad. i consider myself a revelotionist. its time for change. march, anyone lol lol

your ok im ok said...

Your very right jbf. we can be extremely talented, or we are, if only the culture wasnt restricted as fanaticly. theres so much hidden talants. im discovering some. in satmer preforming onstage is forbidden above 12. crazy asses. i woulda loved to express myself, back then. btw i was gonna offer my high school pricaple the book off the derech. im really thinkin of calling here and letting her have it. ill keep u postedlololo

your ok im ok said...

hmm jbf, u a sexaholic. Theres a 12 step program for that to. its called slaa. sex and love addicts anonnymous. let me know if u want help. dont reach rock bottom its horrible. lol

Anonymously annoyed said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

this blogger sounds very much like the old blogger mooochy... just a thought

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Anon 11:22 - I think I said this before. The commenting area is a setting for mature discussion and debate. I don't think baseless personal attacks are at place here.

Captain said...

"Some of us, for instance. Are actual content. Totally content. "

I second that.
Some people talk about adjusting their lives to achieve happiness..and some people actually do it.

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Everyone and Anonyone:
If you have a problem with the way I censor feel free to email me.

It's All Good Now said...

Cafe, I'm with you on the country music thing. I absolutely love everything about country music - the double entendres, the tunes, the tone, etc...

David_on_the_Lake said...

I look around and I see people that really really mean it..and I admire that. If one can live his/her life in a pure and modest fashion thats great.
I think our lifestyle...all we can hope for it to do..is create the atmosphere for those that really want to be modest to be able to.
It cannot impose modesty on the masses...

cafe_28 said...

David is right. And you'd be surprised at how much some people actually want to be as modest as is taught.
Interesting.

Hoezentragerin said...

"Some people talk about adjusting their lives to achieve happiness..and some people actually do it."

Exactly, Captain,
But what TC fails to mention is that those of us who do manage to be content, achieve that NOT by following the Chasidic doctrine, but rather by defying, twisting or ignoring it.
And btw, why did jesus fly away? :)

cafe_28 said...

Hoizen, what makes you think that TC is content by living according to the Chassidish doctrine? Maybe she is twisting it?
But she's content nonetheless, isn't she?

Hoezentragerin said...

"Hoizen, what makes you think that TC is content by living according to the Chassidish doctrine?"

I don't think so. She does

cafe_28 said...

She lives according to the Chassidish doctrine? Hah.

News Flash: she doesn't.

Anonymous said...

come on 28, this you call news?

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

I agree with Hoezen. We all believe TC when she claims to be totally content, that’s not the case. She just tries to convince everyone that her contentment can be credited to the Satmar system. While she does enjoy and appreciate the security our lifestyle brings about, she also enjoys the entertainment and free thinking from the other side of the fence.

Not that I’m denouncing this. Neither am I saying it’s a problem. Just so long as TC understands that her being content would not be TOTALLY had she been living life the Satmar way. While she’s trying to defend Chassidishville she’s really just flaunting her personal happiness.

Captain said...

"Exactly, Captain,
But what TC fails to mention is that those of us who do manage to be content, achieve that NOT by following the Chasidic doctrine, but rather by defying, twisting or ignoring it.
And btw, why did jesus fly away? :) "

Hoezen, everyone has their own version of defiance. Whatever works best. Der ikkus iz as men zol zein erlich and happy.Right?
Re Jesus...wow, you're quick!:)
I reread it and realized that my thoughts weren't connecting..

Anonymous said...

I also grew up in the satmer system.
and guess what
if you would see me, I look like a regular satmer ( seams, palm, hat,wig that looks like a broom etc) but I lead a double life, have a boyfriend, eat non kosher, have tv etc
yes the satmer system sure failed me !

your ok im ok said...

to the last anon post.
i understand that u have a boyfriend,
i understand that u eat non kosher
i understand u watch tv
i understand and feel for u with all my heart.
most ppl cant, they get horrofied when the realize someone isnt religious anymore. in my opinion, theres no one right way to live.
well there is, living a moral life. kind, compassionate, not harming one another.
im so sorry your circumstances arent allowing u to live a straight life thus having to hide.

the satmer system failed most of us, its just hard for them to admit it. its a non-just system. a rude, judgemental, crazy cult. that is not judiasm. sadly it ruined religion altogether for me.

keep following your heart, but try to avoid self destructive behavior outa anger.

nuch a chosid said...

you ok i am ok...
the stamar system failed most of us?!!!!! huh? maybe most of us that wre here exposed on the world wide web, check out shpitzels first post on this blog
http://shpitzle.blogspot.com/2006/10/wwwsatmarcom.html#links

LubaGal said...

Very iteresting!!!
A clear view of Satmar...

Sara with NO H said...

I actually really liked this post. SOrry for backtracking but I think I'd rather comment here than on your latest. Growing up we weren't allowed to go off of our block in a robe. And then, once you hit the shidduch age, you're not allowed to go out in it at all. Th funny thing is we always came up with ways to do it anyway. Like you mentioned, holding it up, or rubberbands at the waist, or a belt to lift it below the knee, throwing a sweater over so no one could see. I guess I never thought anything of it.

mendy said...

Coming from a Chabad House, I've always enjoyed coming to Williamsburg and BP because I saw there so many Ehrliche Yidden, with such a Taharah, it was always very impressive.
This past year though, I've been away from NY, and started reading some blogs from some Williamsburgers and BP'ers etc. When I came home for Tishrei, I couldn't look at these people the same, the things I've read on some blogs made me lose my faith in the "external" look I'd always admired.
But I'm glad I found your blog, I think I may be changing my mind soon.